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Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.26 18:53:00 - [1] mael have some serious issues... atm it totally fail in its supposed role as the pest is still better... the problem here is imo not due to the ship itself (ok the boost bonus is useless), but generated by many factors, one of them are the stats of artillery. artillery was supposed to benefit from 2 factors: - alpha strike - ability to chose the damage type alpha strike just got nerfed to be useless (and is pretty bad to ask dmg bonus instead of rof, it will make the weapon just worse) the ability to chose damage went away with t2 long range ammo (the only possible choice for a good fleet ship) so arty have lost all its benefits and on counter it have - lowest range - lowest dps - lowest tracking this makes artillery ship design quite problematic as there are some necessary bonuses to compete with other ships/weapons a clear example is the mael compared to tempest... the tempest have 2 good dmg bonuses (almost necessary for an arty boat) and what is left for the mael is not much, it need 2 more guns to reach the tempest dps, so the need to give it high pg/cpu and it end with a more expensive boat with a performance very similar to the old ship. imo this problem will be present (not just for this ship but even for other ones) until there will be some substantial rework of proj/arty, a 5% bonus could be a step but is not enought to make this weapon balanced to other ones considering its lack of range and tracking... if arty is supposed to have the lowest range then its dps should be generally higher to longer range weapons (as it happens for close range) if arty is supposed to be a low dps weapon then it should have more versatility in form of range and tracking if the problem is amarr that will fit arty instead of lasers to use the cap to build strong tanks then there are some solutions to prevent that... - increase the pg/cpu requirement of proj weapons (and of minnie ships) to make them harder to fit to other races - improve or introduce a built in damage bonus for minnie ships... eg almost all minnies have a rof bonus of 5%... bring this value to 7.5 - 9% and rebalance ACs (even if ACs need a big boost too imo) back to the mael... as said the ship is not working in its role, if the role have to stay the same then i think it will be better to switch its boost bonus to a 10% shield hp bonus this way at least the mael will offer a better tank than a tempest in a fleet config. rokh... imo this ship is quite overpowered... is not the damage itself but the modules it saves... due to its longer base targetting range, its optimal bonus, very good tank bonus and the superiority of hybrid weapons it totally outclass every other fleet boat. to compare with the mael probably a rock will save 3 if not more slots, slots that can be used to fit a veeery good tank. imo this disparity with other fleet ships is not acceptable and is quite probable that other ships will become simply obsolete. the solution here can be to give it looower pg/cpu to force to use 2 more modules to have a functional fleet setup or simply to remove some guns, giving it lower dps (6 turrets/2 missiles could work), this way the boat will result extremely sturdy but its lower dps should be able to balance this superiority
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.27 01:26:00 - [2] again with mael that should get +dmg bonus instead of +rof? alpha is dead... let it rest in peace +dmg gives less dps than rof and as arty is alredy the lowest dps long range weapons it need the bonus that gives best dps possible (rof) +damage with +50% hps is usefull only if you are sniping nobbs in frigs
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:16:00 - [3] Originally by: Grimpak meh.. nifel has a point but I still would give a dmg+shield hp bonus to the maelstorm, while improving agility of the tempest. queue in nifel screaming "OMFG YOU FOO! STOP SCREAMING BABBLING STUFF! YOU SUCK YADDA YADDA" ok, why do I say that dmg+shield hp would be better: we have the typhoon as the minmatar close range slugger. doesn't have that much grid, but instead has a more bigger flexibility in his firepower since it's based in 3 weapon systems(guns+missiles+drones). however to use the 3 systems in full power it needs to go short range, which means mwd, and using armor tanking in his 7 lowslots. typhoon = close-range slugger with flexible firepower. Only change I would give would be a bit more grid tbh. this is not versatility, this is crapness... split weapon system is all but versatile, why so many phoon pilot don't use turrets and 1 of the ship bonuses at all? you have 2 weapon systems that behave very differently the with different pro and cons... the problem is that the way it is now you get mostly the cons from them and is very problematic to upgrade their damage... 1 damage mod to upgrade 4 weapons (vs 7-8 of most turret bs) 1 rig to upgrade 4 weapons (vs 7-8 of most turret bs) so plz stop with this misunderstanding, split weapon system is all but versatile Originally by: Grimpak now the tempest. Tempest, while less flexible in the firepower department, a bigger ammount of med slots allows hime to be more flexible in other departments, whether is able to shield tank, or going armor tanking with Ewar gadgetry in the meds. Boost agility a bit and what do we have? A flexible, agile gunship that can go short range hit-n-run with mild Ewar, or a hit-n-run sniper, used as fire support in smaller gangs. tempest = multi-range gunship with better flexibility due to more medslots. Here the boost would be an increase of the ship's agility. tempest imo is fine as it is now, a bit more speed/agility can help, but this is for all minnie bs, wich minimal speed bonus generally doesn't really matter. Originally by: Grimpak Then we have the maelstrom. Supposed to be a big, fat, sluggish whale with no better agility of a raven. Supposed to be a fleet ship. But tempest is already a very good fleet ship, why putting the maelstrom ingame? Well, changing the bonuses accordingly (+5% dmg + 10% shield hp) we have a ship that, while does not give better DoT than the tempest, it overcomes it in alpha-strike ability. No better than the tempest in all fields, but different. Maelstrom = fat whale with big durability, bigger alpha strike, and sucky DoT. This is done by changing the RoF + shield boost to damage + shield hp. damage mod is bad... alpha is dead, is useless to have a damage mod that gives less dps than rof... with your changes i think the mael will do less dps than a pest and this is a nono... all t3 bs do more damage than t1-t2 why the minnie one should be gimped? minnie ships need ROF bonus because the base dps of proj is quite crappy so the best dps mod is needed. before various HP boosts alpha was viable and effective in some circumstances... after all these boosts it lost all its effectiveness (exept against frigs :P) if arty will get a base damage mod of +50% (with rof reduce to keep similar dps) then i can see the 5% to damage as a good bonus... but as it is not the case and (probably) it will never be, such bonus will just gimp a ship Originally by: Grimpak so summing it up: you want close range pwnage with multiple gun systems -> typhoon you want a flexible and agile gunship proficient in both short and long range -> tempest you want a battleship that ditches speed and agility for better alpha and durability -> maelstrom as said phoon is versatility is a "myth", and alpha is no more effective... mael need shield boost converted to shield hps, phoon needs split weapon to go away, minnies need pror revamped
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.27 15:58:00 - [4] Originally by: Grimpak don't agree with that. only case where such thing happens is in amarr. Gallente has an half assed blaster boat for tier3 while tier2, wich is not supposed to be a blaster boat, is better at that role, and raven does more damage than rohk. wich brings the point that Phenom fighter stated: Originally by: Phenom Fighter Im seeing a lot of people posting 'These ships should be better' compaired to their Tier 1 and 2 counterparts. Why? They definatly shouldn't be better, they should be different. More spec'd etc... Tech 2 should be better, not Tier's. i agree but minnies can't really do that for different things... minnie EW is crappy and proj dps are so low that they need rof to be comparable to other weapons with no dmg mods. so a proj to be comparable with a +rof laser or a +dmg hybrid need 2 dmg mods (and we are out ship bonuses) this imo "gimp" all the possibility to design versatile ships... as you always end up there... also consider that probably new ships probably do around 10-20% more damage than previous ships... to have the tempest (that had alredy damage problems compared to other ship) as the main minnie dps turret boat will be a bit ehm... problematic Originally by: Grimpak and I also believe that alpha is not dead. Tux said they want to increase the 1400's dmg by 5% or so, which brings to the fact that an howie abbadon/apoc will do the same alpha as a maelstorm if it has RoF instead damage. but they will do less dps who is the main factor... they want to have same alpha? ok... the cost is crappy dps. Originally by: Grimpak Stop thinking in DPS/DoT wise. Fighting should not be in favor of who can make more damage alone. is quite the opposite, if ships had not the 50% hps boost then it was viable... so is not that i'm narrow minded and think all in dps (even if dps is a veeeeery important factor and generally dps is the main parameter in weapon graphs) the problem is that with such hp boost the alpha lost its effectiveness... your hits are 35% less effective (if i'm not wrong) and for a parameter that focus on instant damage it equals to a nerf into oblivion, probably we are going to fight against ships with 40-50k total hps to have a damage mod of 10 instead of 8 will not mean anything Originally by: Grimpak as for the phoon, never said that weapon versatility was a good thing. however, since you are doing a DPS/DoT comparision, go check the graphs where a fully armed typhoon (T2 AC/siege + T2 ogres) beats the tempest in damage. it does. the phoon beat the pest just because the pest can't use heavy drones... also the phoon can beat just the pest (and maybe the scorp) as every other bs, with a decent setup and a dmg mod or 2 beat the phoon by a good margin
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.29 08:09:00 - [5] Edited by: Ath Amon on 29/10/2006 08:10:57 i agree with phoon problems for its split weapon setup (as said many times) now even more as split approach will be even more inefficent due to rigs... 1 rig to boost 4 weapons with a single damage bonus vs ships that boost 7-8 weapons with just 1 rig... i will like to see it turned into a "real bomber" with 6 missiles slots and the second ship bonus turned as a speed one... for the tempest i don't think it will never get a 7th turret... 7 turrets with double bonuses means that it will outdamage the mael a thing that quite problematic looking at how t3 BS are designed. instead i still hope proj will get some revamp to make them more viable... edit... AC pest with very high dps? probably due to crap dps from proj and inability to use 5 heavy drones it is the lowest dps close range boat
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.10.29 08:20:00 - [6] Originally by: SpMind Why all always say "if you fit projectiles @ abbadon or apoc". Why you did not say same about mega or tempest? why? Maybe lasers need a bit rethinkink? even if i think that lasers need some love i don't think is a right comparsion... amarr ships have a great benefit from ACs in tank compartment as with proj they can use all their cap to build massive tank... they chose a crap dps for better tanking... a minnie ship instead doesn't get same benefit from laser... first because cap usage (it have not the cap reducion) and second the benefit in dps will be not that great to justify the cap problems... more or less proj + 1 rof (standard minnie bonus) is similar to laser whitout bonus dpswise so you see the ship will just use cap for no real benefit it can be a bit different for 425mm... for the tempest it was not a good option as 1 1400mm + 2 bonus is clearly superior damagewise to a 425mm whitout any bonus, but for the mael it can be different. 1 1400mm + rof bonus is not that higher than a 425mm whitout bonus, and the 425mm have better range, tracking and fitting. still probably will not be that common as for sure someone who can use 425mm T2 will spend a month training the rokh that outclasses the mael for both range and tanking.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.05 00:41:00 - [7] Edited by: Ath Amon on 05/11/2006 00:44:00 about arty and rails here a little comparsion neutron vs 425mm ac pros dps cons fitting cap usage range equal tracking ininfluential alpha 1400mm vs 425mm rails pros cons dps fitting range tracking equal ininfluential alpha cap usage note: put alpha in ininfluential after the hps boost, before it had it use... cap usage is ininfluential in long range for these guns as the cap consumption is very low in a sniping/fleet scenario seem balanced?
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.05 15:41:00 - [8] mah, imo it should get 6-7 turrets and not 8, or make fitting more difficult... in its current state it makes every other fleet bs obsolete with good dps, huge range and tank... to balance all the mods that it save with its weapon/sensor range and res bonus it really need to lose something or to make fitting comparable to other BS. even racewise it doesn't make that much sense for it to have 8 turrets as caldari are not a "focused" turret race
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.05 22:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Ishina Fel Originally by: Ath Amon to balance all the mods that it save with its weapon/sensor range and res bonus it really need to lose something or to make fitting comparable to other BS. It does. It has no offensive bonuses whatsoever (range is a tactical bonus). It is the slowest of all battleships in the game. It is the heaviest of all battleships in the game. It has the biggest signature of all battleships in the game. It has the smallest drone bay of all battleships in the game. It has the worst scan resolution (i.e. worst locking time) of all battleships in the game. People only look at slot layout and powergrid when judging a ship's capabilties, and in this they fail to see the full picture. i'm speaking in fleet/long range config... in such situation all these cons are meaningless is not a problem of full picture, the problem is that in its role it have almost no cons and make everything else obsolete. the damage is lower than other fleet BS, but imo not enought to make it balanced and its better range is more than enought to balance it out not to say that also it will probably be able to fit an additional damage mod so the difference will be lower than the one shown on graphs
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.06 01:07:00 - [10] here an example of rokh uberness... rokh vs mael in fleet config graph rokh is using 4 damage mods mael is using 3 damage mods and 3 tracking comp/enh so we have a situation with 4 vs 6 mods, on top of that the mael need 2 sensor boosters to fight in 150-200km range, while the rokh need just 1 so the rokh is saving 3 slots and as you can see the dps difference is minimal (under 7%), also i alredy added the 5% damage boost that should be implemented to "balance" the lack of alpha, whitout that boost the dps is almost identical. both ships will probably need 1 fitting mod, expecially if they want to use damage rigs so after the that fitting, with results shown in graph, we have 5 free slots + 25% to res for the rokh to fit an uber tank, while the mael have 2 free slots and a useless shield boost a similar discussion can be done for the abaddon, while the res bonus, dps, and tankage will be better than the mael, it will need to fit cap rechargers to run its lasers, so what it will eventually gain in slots will be used to fit tons of cap rec note: i'm using old T2 ammos, so situation should be even better for the rokh with new ones

Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.07 07:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Vampire Lord I think The New T3 Minmatar BS should be a Missile Boat. A bigger version of the typhoon. Not a Weaker Version of the Tempest. Becuase I think with the way things look a Shield Tankout out DPS Tempest could take the T3 Version. I mean if were gona keep up at this rate why not just get rid of Minmatar all together an create another sub race from caldri. Then we might get some luv. ther's alredy the phoon that can become a missile boat just adding 2 missiles slots and removing the turret rof bonus in the end i think the mael idea is not bad, but it suffer for arty actual crapness and the wrong bonus... 10% to shield hp and a substantial arty revamp can make it a good fleet arty platform (possibly comparable to rokh) and a good (but static) ac passive platform. and then we get phoon: fast missile boat pest: agile versatile proj platform (both ac and arty) mael: passive shield arty (or even ac) platform
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.09 07:14:00 - [12] Edited by: Ath Amon on 09/11/2006 07:17:08 Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 09/11/2006 06:53:42 Ever noticed how NOBODY wants a shield tanked artillery boat btw? I have no idea why ccp decided to create such a thing just without anyone actually expressing the need for one. i want it Originally by: Jim McGregor I seriously cant get over a shield boost bonus and a rof bonus on a slow artillery ship for medium range with gimped alpha strike. Its... just silly tbh. shield boost bonus is bad, i think everyone, Tux included agree with that... if it should be a shield tank arty it should have +shield hp or +res... as +res is alredy "picked" by rokh we are left with shield hp this ship will never be a good arty platform with shield boost bonus, but it doesn't mean it can't never be a good arty platform with another bonus. Originally by: Jim McGregor * Good passive recharge rate - cool, lets add an active shield tanking bonus to make it "versatile"! eheh i agree Originally by: Jim McGregor * Looks speedy - cool, lets make it pretty slow to surprise the enemy! even if for an arty platform speed is not that important Originally by: Jim McGregor * Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets give it rof bonus like a autocannons ship! * Designed as a artillery boat - cool, lets make sure its alpha strike is not better than the apoc with artillery! in this i totally disagree... alpha is now useless, the dps bonus will make not alpha viable and will gimp even more its dps... with damage instead of rof the ship will do more dps and have more range mounting rails ROF bonus is needed to proj because it add around 13% more dps than a similar +damage bonus helping to balance the poor dps of proj (expecially now that alpha is no more viable) Originally by: Jim McGregor * Designed as a artillery boat - 50% more hp to all ships, 5% more dmg to artillery (maybe). Sounds pretty good, guys! ... Ok, I think ive ranted enough. But DO something ffs. It didnt take long to try and fix the Myrmidon, so lets get started on this boat too, shall we? as said in other posts imo the problem of mael are 2... the bad shield bonus (ship problem) and the total crapness of arty (weapon problem) >graph1< >graph 2< this is the actual arty situation... as long as arty will not be able to compete against rails there will be no mean to make a good arty bs (at least comparable to rokh)... fix this situation (giving to arty +20-25% dps or +40-50% optimal range boost) and switch shield boost to shield hp and the mael will become a very effective arty platform
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.09 19:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Captain RaynorEvery time CCP gives the Amarr a missile ship (read: Sacrilege) they whined it up so hard about how it was unfair they had to train up missile skills to use it that Tux caved in and turned it into a crappy Zealot clone. Far as the Rokh goes.. it's going to lose to just about every battleship since the optimal bonus, while probably is going to be wonderful for big sniper fleets that fight on the outer edge of 200km+, otherwise isn't all that great. I have to wonder if the cost of the Rokh is really worth it, when a Tempest or Megathron can probably do the same thing for less.[/quote isn't that great? it saves 2 if not 3 modules over other ships... some posts i put in a comparsion graph between rokh and mael/tempest... i also assure you that the situation of abaddon or mega are more or less the same...
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.10 15:57:00 - [14] Originally by: Zixxa Just for my curiosity. What is so good with Rokh? - No damage bonus. I.e. worst damage dealing BS in Eve history(except Raven and Scorpion, of course :) ) - Shield resist bonus. We do not need this bonus in fleet/big size battles at all. We rather do not need this bonus when sniping smth. (Most stupid bonus for BS after shield boosting bonus.) - Distance bonus is cool, but do not overestimate it. Even after nerf t2 Rokh cannot beat t2 Mega. - Rather difficult to fit because of low PG. - sluggish. - slow. - no even reasonable drone bay to help against smaller ships So, what cool in Rokh? here what is cool
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.10 18:19:00 - [15] Edited by: Ath Amon on 10/11/2006 18:20:04 tempest have more dps in fleet? you looked at the graph i posted? and is not just 25% more hps due to res, the rokh probably will save 2-3 mods over other fleet ships and theis means another 6-10k more hps with 25% res on top of that... rokh will be to other BS what tech2 ammos are now to tech1... if you have a rokh fleet you win, if you have a mixed fleet you loose
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.11 13:30:00 - [16] Edited by: Ath Amon on 11/11/2006 13:30:38 for abaddon i'm not that sure it is a so bad ship for support midrange i should be a very good ship if fitted with a passive tank... for long range i have some doubts but taking rigs into account the situation seem to be way better this is a graph with just 3 mods (2dmg and 1 tracking) graph here a config that can be used 8 tachs t2 2 cap rec 2 1 sensor booster 1 tracking comp 2 heatshinks 2 2 rcu 2 2 power relays 1 1600 rolled tungsten or a 3rd pewer relay 3 laser cap reduction rigs (t1) with 3 power relay there is not cany cap comsumption with this config the cap produced is the same of the one used by guns, so it is possible to drop a power relay for a plate or a tracking enhancer comparing it to rokh is not that good, but compared to the mael probably is a better ship
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.11 13:55:00 - [17] rigs atm are stacking with mods so 2 dmg + 3 dmg rigs will be like to have a bit more than 3 dmg mods for lasers, and expecially in a long range config imo cap usage reduction is the best choice so the damage difference between the 2 ships is not extreme, tank will be equal or even better for the abaddon due to higher base armor and 25% resists (33% more hps) cap usage is not that different with the 2 cap relay abbaddon and as said that was using t1 rigs, with t2 the abaddon should get more advantage over other amarr ships also i'm not saying that abaddon is fine as it is now, as you see the rokh is quite superior to it, but for sure is quite near to the mael (that have its problem too)
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.11 14:30:00 - [18] mmm actually i tested it in the last public build used and was working like that checked with 3 t1 cap rigs and situation should be quite good indeed is it possible to fit a 3/2 mod config + 1 plate and have a very good cap comsumption, with t2 probably there will be space for another mod also i agree that atm there is much confusion about rigs, i can be wrong too and/or maybe rigs will change again until release.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.11 17:02:00 - [19] actually i see the abaddon as different than geddon or apoc i see it more as a support (gank) ship for midrange combat or a longrange tach platform (if not fitted with ACs then it get a huge tank :P) but mostly my point was that atm the ship seem not that good because of its huge cap compsumption but, most of the time, this evaluation is made whitout taking in account new rigs if rigs will share stack penalities with mods then this ship can get a huge boost from them as, maybe it will never be a gank + active tank, but in fleet it can have both better dps and tankage than a geddon. all of this still keeping in account that atm rails are a superior weapon system than both beams and arties and so the rokh will always be a superior ship
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.11 17:59:00 - [20] in fact i agree with that but also i think that an amarr fleet ship to be functional should need to fit cap rechargers as its base dps is way higher than other weapons... i'll do a comparsion with arties because lasers and arty are imo better balanced that lasers vs rails (overpowered :P) if you look at the graph i posted above you will see that the abbaddon curve and the mael one are not that umbalanced... abaddon do way more damage while the mael have a better range. now if you look at modules used you will see that mael was using 6 mods (3 tracking and 3 dmg) while the abaddon just 3 (2 dmg and 1 tracking) this should mean that (more or less), in the current situation, an abaddon to be balanced with a mael damagewise use 3 less modules to balance that in my opinion is necessary for the abaddon to use such modules for cap purpose, if the ship will have just a few cap problems that a single booster/recharger is needed then the abaddon can fit other 2 damage/tracking modules and totally outperform the mael. to that imo i think we should add the rig efficency if a particular rig will have an high efficency (as could be the case of cap consumption ones) here that the modules needs can be a bit more severe. all of this discussion to say that imo a ship like the abaddon wich have 2 good bonuses for fleet action (+rof +res) need to use some of its rigs or mods to balance its cap. now is this overall balanced?... no as the rokh is clearly a better ship, but this imo is a more general problem about beams vs rails, not of this ship itself... the ship seem good to me, good slots, good bonuses, armor tank... it have everything it need... then if the cap usage is so severe to make it not comparable to a rokh the problem can be elsewhere... beams imo need a good cap reduction, as much arties need a range or dps boost, this not to remove the cap usage but to bring "necessary cap modules"/damage curve more inline to mods/curves of other ships, in particular by the rokh.

Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.12 19:50:00 - [21] even for me is not a very good solution to "sacrify" a bs for a support ship if a BS like abaddon will realy heavilly on other ships to fire then the fleet will become quite vulnerable as losing a support ship will be like to lose 1+ BS even the idea to warp in and out is not that good imo... basically you are going to loose the dps advantage you have over other ships at best i can see a tempest or 2 that fit a mid or light cap transfer mod to help a comrade, but this should be not the "solution" to cap problems... just a small help if cap start to run really low. still comparing abaddon to rokh the difference in efficency is huge, probably even if it had a 5%rof 10%cap usage the ship was not able to compete with the caldari new BS as said imo the problem is more in lasers than on ships... or better by the difference of rails compared to other turrets.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.12 20:10:00 - [22] eheh rokh is quite uber a passive tank with 1-2 invul and 2-3 large extenders... 200+ km range... decent dps... also with passive you don't need much cap and you can use it just for the guns :)
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.13 07:38:00 - [23] Originally by: Ishina Fel Originally by: Ath Amon eheh rokh is quite uber a passive tank with 1-2 invul and 2-3 large extenders... 200+ km range... decent dps... Rokh doesn't passive tank nearly as well as a Ferox/Drake. Though I guess, it's okay for mission running... as far as large turrets are okay for mission running. ehm i was speaking about fleet, that is its supposed role... for mission running raven or even better CNR will be waaaaay better
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.14 12:43:00 - [24] again? ewwww ok... here the graph rokh is ubahhhh :P as you can see the rokh to be totally superior to the mael is alredy using a less mod... eventually it can go even with 4 mods and be still superior to male... (so it is alredy saving 1-2 mods) rokh targetting range with 1 sensor booster should alredy be around 200km mael with 1 sensor booster should be around 160km so ipotetically the rokh can chose to save another mod... rokh have higher base dps and 25% res to all... so we have an average of 2 mods saved and 25% res = it both outrange and outtank the mael as you see also the dps difference between the 2 ships is not that huge... 7% difference abaddon is a bit different... it have huge dps potential but also need 4 mods + rigs to sustain its fire how to fix the rokh? 2 ways... 1)nerf the ubah rokh!!! give it 6 turrets instead of 8.. this way its dps will be way lower, maybe lower enought to justify the use of other ships in a fleet, also caldari are not a turret race... i think we can say they "split turrets" as much as minnies "split missiles" so, storywise it makes also sense. 2)boost other long range ships this is my fav as arty and lasers are also totally inferior to rails... speaking about arty here the graph... arty is crap so first step is to boost arty stats... my fav solution is with a 40-50% range bonus but even a dps boost of 25% can work second step is to change mael boost bonus in a passive tank one as a 10% shield hps/lv comparsion graph with increased range for laser, simply reduce the beam/tachs cap usage by a 25-30% and eventually boost optimal a bit ps: adding other graphs
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.14 23:11:00 - [25] i agree, as said in other posts imho the problem here is mostly about weapons and not for ship themselves the idea should be not to change the abaddon or maelstrom (even if its shielf boost need to be changed) to compete with rokh in offensive compartment... but to change the weapons because the umbalance is in weapon systems and not in ships
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.15 13:16:00 - [26] Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats) the abaddon is imo another mid-long range ship so i don't say that these ship should be 100% equal, but that they should be at least comparable... the rokh atm is not comparable to any ship that can fit that role... not considering gallente ships (that atm have not a real long range platform) the other ships are too much inferior to it (as shown in the graph) now... is it a rokh problem or a weapon one? actually i agree with you that the rokh can be ok for its role... its bonuses and its fitting is not that uber by itself... both mael and abaddon have similar bonuses and fitting... so imo the real problem is with their weapons... as shown in the comparsion between arty and rails these weapons are not balanced at all... before kali alpha was able to balance that difference a bit... but with kali with both HP boost and range nerf this is no longer true... for laser the discussion is quite similar to arty, is just a bit more difficult to do a comparsion as the problem there is not damage/range itself, but cap now for me there is no problem to keep the rokh as it is now, is a fine ship and i assure you i don't want it nerfed... but to keep the ship overal balanced with other ones supposed to fit a fleet role we have to fix the weapon umbalance, or really in a couple of months we will see a situation where T2 rokh = actual T2 fitted ships and T2 other ships = actual T1 fitted ones
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.15 18:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Zixxa Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09 Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats) What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship. still trolling around? it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame... and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing... and you continue to say tank is useless, range is useless, dps is useless... what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago? if you think that i'm so wrong plz post your data to enlight me
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.15 19:51:00 - [28] Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 19:53:00 Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: Zixxa Edited by: Zixxa on 15/11/2006 17:51:09 Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/11/2006 13:16:52 @ Lobo Noturno we know from Tux that rokh and mael share same role as long range platform (rails and arty shield tank boats) What? Rokh is the ONLY long range BS platform in the game. Rokh has no damage bonus(and suxx as damage dealer). Bad joke from the Tux. We need on Rokh 5% damage bonus not useless 5% shield resistance bonus. And it will be good fleet ship. still trolling around? still trying tutorial? as you see my avatar is clearly visible.. (not as your) so probably i finished the tutorial a bit, before you Originally by: Zixxa Originally by: Ath Amon it is not supposed to be the only long range bs platform ingame... May be it is not supposed. but now Rokh is the ONLY long rage BS platform. Originally by: Ath Amon and about your statement... you say that damage it crap... show that plz, i posted graph you posted nothing... Get calculator and calculate. Few examples: Mega = 71.25 = 8.75 guns Tempest = 61.251.33 = 10 guns And Tempest has better alphastrike. little problem is that arty and rails have not the same stats so your gun comparsion is worth nothing as they are using different weapons... to do a simple example... if i have a weapond that do 30x dps of another one i can mount just 1 gun and outdps by a far amount a ship that mount 10 guns with 1.251.33 Originally by:* Zixxa Quote: and you continue to say tank is useless, In fleet tank is useless. Nobody can tank being locked primary more than ping time. Quote: range is useless, Range may be useful in some conditions. But it far to be so useful as pure dps. Let's replace range bonus for damage bonus, ok? Quote: dps is useless... You lie. if tank is useless so is the dps... Originally by: Zixxa Quote: what is usefull for long range/fleet action? the MWD as you posted a bit ago? Yes, MWD is useful, but it depends from stupidity of enemy. Fleet ABC for you, noobie. For fleet must important thing is ALPHA-STRIKE! And Rokh's alpha strike is LAUGHFUL. Second most important thing for fleet is DPS. And Rokh's DPS is miserable. i alredy posted the graph showing the dps difference of mael/pest/rokh... you said it was a lie and posted nothing... and about who is the noobie... Originally by: Zixxa I hope you are right, because I am going to train rails, but I do not see how Rokh may be more useful even than Mega. how is that you are so expert of fleet battles and hybrid weapons BS if you have yet to train rails?
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.16 18:22:00 - [29] Edited by: Ath Amon on 16/11/2006 18:23:16 as long as rails is so superior to other turrets you will need 3 ship bonuses to compete with rokhs... don't think this is going to happen
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.16 22:08:00 - [30] i disagree about controlled brusts... they will boost even hybrids weapons that doesn't need any more boost the real problem here is beams that use too much cap... rebalance beams and problem solved

Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.16 23:17:00 - [31] yes, but on the other hand ACs need to keep range to be competitive... also is true that blasters consume cap, but do also more damage that (generally and if possible) translate in more cap used by the defender to heal it so yup blasters use cap to fire but also require more cap to defend against (made a post with an example in a thread cap boost for amarr and gallentem if you want i'll link)
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.17 10:36:00 - [32] i agree about crap tracking (a thing to change considering the stats of rails) but probably your problem was the distance t2 longrange ammos where nerfed and now with arty and 0 or 1 tracking mods you can't reach anymore 200km to have any chance to hit someone at 200km you need 3 tracking mods (and still your hit ratio will be quite poor, even whitout taking in account transverstall/sig radius)
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:00:00 - [33] i know i know tracking is really bad, but for a cruiser so "slow" the main problem was the range... to do decent damage at that distance and with such config you really need a rokh you want the rokh
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:52:00 - [34] problem is the rokh... the mael, with fixes at shield booster bonus and at arties, that atm are not balanced at all compared to rails, can be balanced against the caldari BS the tempest can't, even if arties will be rebalanced to rails... it simply have not enought guns and uses 2 bonuses to do what mael do with just 1 bonus, also sensor range is inferior
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.17 22:48:00 - [35] Originally by: XFreedomX I see alot of people here trying to get a little extra for their race or trying to knock down other race instead of being fair. What should be happening here is you fittout the ships to try to make it too powerful and report it. Suggestion: 1. Stop complaining about the Rohk, 90% of caldari pilot can't snipe anyways, and by the time they train up the skills, if it is indeed too powerful, it will get nerfed (winner!) 2. Stop crying about the shield boost bonus for Mealstrum, less dmg, more tank means you are less likely to be primary. 3. Abaddon, if you can't fit 8 tachyon, then don't. You got a tanking machine here, use it. (You should be trying to fit it for a unbreakable tank and auto cannon) 4. Gallente pilot, stop crying about your BS, you know you will be flying the Rohk. lol so if i understand right the rokh is balanced because not many caldari pilots have rails... and because other ships are so crap that they will be not called as primary... very nice balancing parameters...
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.18 16:38:00 - [36] Originally by: Kaylana Syi --------- Maelstrom --------- 10% Shield Hitpoints per level 5% Large Projectiles damage per level as long as arty will be so crap compared to rails even with these bonuses the mael will be useless in fleet... its dps will be equal if not inferior to the rokh at all range and it still it will not be able to hit past 200km also generally i prefer the rof bonus... even with dmg bonuses the hp boost will made the mael worse than the old pest alpha strike, so for me a rof bonus is always better :P first problem of minnie long range ship atm is artillery that is hugely underpowered, not the ship bonuses themselves
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.18 19:15:00 - [37] Edited by: Ath Amon on 18/11/2006 19:27:14 here the cumulative damage of +dmg mael vs rokh the dps of the 2 ships is veeeeeery similar, with the mael that tend do "degrade" a bit at various reloads 10 min graph1 26 secs graph2 as you see the alpha advantage is not that huge and the 2 damages are quite balanced... what throw away that balance are the 50km of higher optimal range that makes the alpha and dps of mael pointless as it will not be able to hit its enemy... this is mostly because rails have pratically an "inbuilt bonus" in their stats with higher base dps and higher range... some posts ago i linked a comparsion between arty and rails... the real problem is there, as long as the 2 weapons will be umbalanced so will be also the ships
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.18 20:10:00 - [38] Edited by: Ath Amon on 18/11/2006 20:10:44 extra damage is in because i tend to compare rokh with 4dmg/1track vs mael with 3dmg/3track so actually the rokh is also saving a module over the mael... and adding... the comparsion i was referring is whitout taking in account any dmg module or ship bonuses
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.20 17:14:00 - [39] Edited by: Ath Amon on 20/11/2006 17:14:13 nope rigs stack with modules so you can't gain much range from them even giving to mael something like +rof +optimal will make it quite inferior to the rokh as the damage will be maybe balanced but the caldari ship will have way better tanking will never be tired to say... problem is not in mael itself but in weapons... arty is total crap compared to rail... 425mm do around 20-25% more dps than 1400mm and at 1400mm best damage it have around 30% more range... on top of that it have better tracking and fitting... (no mods or bonuses considered, just long range t2 ammo) and for sure cap is not a big issue for a railboat in fleet as long as there will be such umbalance there is no hope to make ships balanced... if arty will get, for example, a 40-50% optimal range boost both "base weapon" and ships (mael vs rokh) will be quite balanced... (of course mael should have shield boost bonus converted in passive shield hp bonus)
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.21 17:49:00 - [40] maelstorm shield recharge got also nerfed/balanced so is no more 1500 but 3000 as others... before this change was quite possible to fit a decent AC (hail) + passive tank now the option is gone...

Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.21 17:51:00 - [41] Originally by: Leandro Salazar WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat) ok so as fleet combat is so boring let's totally remove long range weapons... why to force cladari players to be so bored?
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.21 21:12:00 - [42] Originally by: Justin Cody mmm passive tanking BS eh? you sure you want that? alongside great alpha strike damage? well well well...gimme my drake back then and we'll talk. alpha with autocannons?
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.11.22 00:22:00 - [43] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Ath Amon Originally by: Leandro Salazar WTH are people complaining about the Rokh bonus now? Geez... The Rokh is the only really working tier3 and you want to nerf it? And if the Rokh really becomes the only viable fleet ship, so what? Fleets are boring anyway, having just one ship dominating them couldn't possibly make them any more boring. Please do NOT make the other tier3s into pure fleet ships too, make them useful in other combat types where the individual ship characteristics actually matter, and where they are useful also to people who are not fleet nerds. And what exactly is keeping an opposing fleet from warping in at 200km instead of 250 anyway? (Yeah I am a total n00b to fleet combat) ok so as fleet combat is so boring let's totally remove long range weapons... why to force cladari players to be so bored? Wrong target. My portrait in Caldari because I prefer imperial uniforms over sunglasses, but ship-wise I am a Matari (well Jack of all trades really, but Caldari, Amarr and Gallente are just tools while the Minnie ones are my babies) so I take being called Caldari player an insult But still I wouldn't object to totally removing long range weapons! nah the target was not you, but the idea that a certain aspect of the game should be accessible only to players that pilot a certain race... regardless if this can be considered boring or not... the fact that a particular form of pvp can be considered boring is not a justification to have it relegated to caldari users only... expecially considering that fleet battles maybe are not that exciting but are probably the most important form of pvp as is the way alliance fight each other

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